Roots Archives Forum

I agree with Dave K in the sense that it should be a moral obligation to help the helpless. The problem is this oppression is systematic (free market capitalism) and within that system, individuals cannot do much for individuals, no matter if they feel morally obligated to do anything. Even if I were, for example, to send money to a Jamaican taxi driver in need after a hurricane, that is a temporary solution to the continual and crushing problem (again, free market capitalism). Nothing will truly change until that taxi driver is united with other taxi drivers in a union which owns its own labor and makes decisions democratically rather than ruthlessly competing against one another (as goes for the onion farmer and every other worker of the world).
And Leggo Rocker, right on with the third-world analysis of the US. I also agree with your point about the bourgeois finding more efficient ways of keeping people content and depoliticized. However, I disagree that a revolution (whether militant or democratically) is not probable because of more opium. Humanity will not stay content if the wealth gap continues to grow. Interest in socialism is rising (http://www.socialistalternative.org/new ... php?id=990) and people are continually becoming politicized once again. UNITE!

When the revolution comes, you know when the revolution comes there won`t be no commercials, when the revolution comes . . . The Last Poets.

The walfare state in the UK has made people not work, with housing benefit paying the rent, community change 100% rebate, which just them two at £130 a week, council housing charges for water rates and hot water and heating one flat rate at £6 each, so your water, heating and hot water is £18 a week and as much as you want, you could have the heating on all day and all night, all week it will still be a flat rate of £6 a week. Now you wonder why people don`t want a job for £150 a week or less!! So the poor government feels they need to help the poor poor people or don`t in not fixing the lifts or the water been turned off for 2 months. A lot of the people on benefits are claiming benefits which they are not intitled to, but the government don`t bother sorting that out. People claiming orange badges for disabled parking and there`s nothing wrong with them. It all helps the feeling hard done by non-poor every little helps on benefits. The government are to scared to sort it out because it would effect the unemployment figures and there would be more crime if there was no welfare state. So they have time to decide what colour ipoddie to have and talk about what colour shoes someones wearing on some rubbish tv programme.

The Ghost Ants are coming!!!!

peace

I understand the concerns of rampant consumerism. I assume it is worse here in the US than in England, but I could be wrong. However, if I may critique many of the users of this forum, I don't see how paying thousands on vinyl every year is somehow less materialistic than buying a $100 ipod and downloading all of your music off the net. A small gripe, but a legit one I believe.
To understand mass consumerism in the recent century and the idea that freedom is what brand of blue jeans to buy, you must also understand this "freedom" was deliberately set up for us by the ruling class. Sometimes through violence. There's a great documentary about negative and positive liberty linked below (something that would never be produced in the US, so don't feel England is too ignorant):

http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=W ... emb=0&aq=f#

In addition, Leggo Rocker, judging by your labeling past "socialist" revolutions "so-called", I assume you know that the fascist states that developed from these revolutions were not Socialist by any stretch of the imagination. Socialism is not a change in an elite animal running the farm, it's EVERY animal running the farm together. And by the way, George Orwell was a self-declared socialist and anarchist.

Stepping Razor, what you described is precisely the problem with reformism: Trying to reform capitalism is like trying to put a band-aid on a burn victim. Capitalism inherently requires a great number of people unemployed to amass a "reserve army of labor" to scare the shit out of people who are employed (because there's always someone to replace them if they demand higher wages or more power in the workplace). So please don't blame the unemployed and poor for their condition. Especially health wise. The cheapest form of caloric intake is sugar, white bread, and fast food. Vegetables, fruits, whole grains, and nuts are expensive. Damn expensive.

The only way to mend ALL of these social ills is a complete systematic shift which is historically on track. People will grow tired of mass consumption. Just wait.

"Socialism no fool". - Neville Martin

BBJ

**And by the way, George Orwell was a self-declared socialist and anarchist.**

I am trying to understand how you can be both of these things at the same time.

well it would be possible to function day to day as a socialist but to have actual anarchist beliefs.
Not impossible - probable with many people, I'm sure.

One might opt to be pragmatic and adhere to a milder form of activism or activity while holding more radical beliefs.

?

I guess I am assuming that his actions are mirroring his stated beliefs, with both being sides active at the same time. I guess only George can explain this, and George ain't here anymore.

Captilism, socialism, communism.....they are all perfect on paper, but what matters is what happens when you add human nature into the mix? Personally I like to see invention and ingenuity rewarded, with a far more level playing field of opportunity for everyone. In other words, it's not an 'either / or" proposition.

Did you know that during WWII, all major corporate CEOs formed a club called the "Dollar club", which basically saw them getting an annual salary of $1 until the end of the war. They rationale was that they couldn't profit from conflict that is causing so many deaths. Imagine that, business with an actual concience. Now compare that to what we are seeing today in the Middle East....what Keynes wrote about is actually no more, with globalization creating these monolithic monsters with no concience. If you are only accountable to shareholders, profit is all that matters. What to do?
Get active. Find out who these companies are that using slave labour, and boycott them. They only understand money, and lack thereof.

I'll shut up now, I'm rambling!

I disagree with the whole "human nature" argument. Does everyone here really feel that humans are naturally viscous creatures? In modern society humans act as the current system rewards and permits them to act. If your reward system is strictly based off personal monetary gains and that system rewards you to put people in debt (the fastest and best way to make money in the US, probably in the UK), that's what people are going to do. It's not that people are naturally prone to fuck each other over, it's what they're expected and rewarded to do. That's a prime example of capitalism. And I also don't buy the whole, "capitalism, socialism, they're all systems so that must mean they're bad". Systems change. Society progresses and united classes make that change.

Leggo Rocker, It's to bad for Britain that the Labour party turned their backs on the working class. It seems as though you guys have a couple of parties just like here in the US: A two headed monster in bed with corporate lobbyists.

Oh and finally, anarchism and socialism. Both have a long history developing together and both have the same basic foundation and end goals: Classlessness, collective ownership, and democratic control of the workplace. Basically, both want to extend and enhance freedom. Marx was influenced by early anarchists and anarchists since have been influenced by Marx. In fact, if you compare what communism truly is and what anarchism is, they're almost synonyms.

Opium is opium whether it's western or eastern.

*I disagree with the whole "human nature" argument. Does everyone here really feel that humans are naturally viscous creatures? In modern society humans act as the current system rewards and permits them to act.*

The same holds true for times before we had the current system. I believe that humans naturally get along until there is something that makes them disagree. Wars have been fought long before the industrial revolution, be they over religion or resources (kind of a prevailing theme throughout history, isn't it?).

*In fact, if you compare what communism truly is and what anarchism is, they're almost synonyms*

One is predicated on a centralized power structure, the other is devoid of any centralized power structure, which is a major fundamental difference. Usually when you point to the old Soviet Union as an example of this, people like to quickly point out that this isn't an example of "true communism", and that "one hasn't existed yet". While this may be true, it's also true about capatilism, which according to Keynes includes caring for the less fortunate, and a high degree of philanthropism.

This is why I believe that these are both perfect in a theoretical sense, but different when practically applied.

But the terms "captalism" and "socialism" are subject to different interpretations, so we may in fact be talking about different things!

I'm going to jump out of this one, as I am not an expert on modern geo-politics, and I don't want to seem argumentative to you, as even our different political views doesn't diminish the respect I have for the work you did with "Life & Debt". I truly hope it opens a lot of eyes around the world to the dealings and practises of the IMF.

@leggo (and all)
I've been steering clear of this thread and the way it has been going for various reasons, but I thought I'd pipe in now instead of mixing my current couple of tracks, because that could keep me up way too late and then and then...
So...The Varna system - hey lets go with that then!...oh it didn't work out too well did it? Sounds a lot like late medieval Europe to me.
People really don't conveniently fit into those moulds as described and as so often happens, those that govern (GWB, Blair etc.), teach (my son's teacher!), manufacture (companies I deal with from time to time), preach (most priest I ever encountered) etc. are very likely in the wrong profession for who knows what reasons.
However simplistic it might sound I think humanity has an uncanny knack of reverting to something akin to Feudalism - it seems to be the natural and obviously injust order of things. And human nature has a lot to do with it. People are different, have different levels of intelligence, ambition, energy, drive - some of this is innate and some conditioned.

The human condition and how to solve it?
I have no reasonable answer.
Python's Meaning of Life may have done a good enough job of summing it up...

As to any of the 'isms' - I can't really take any of them seriously as they attempt to impose on humanity social and political frameworks that go against the generally rag tag nature of human society.

A brainy guy can come up with a killer 'ism'- it takes a thug to enforce it. Enforcement destroys the worthwhile parts of the ideology. Back to square one.

Americans pride themselves on their Revolution whereas in fact it was a rebellion not a revolution. They wanted to maintain their status quo and George was fucking with them. Hence all that followed.

To somewhat return to the original topic, clearly several Jamaican governments have failed the people of the country and factionalism is still so strong that there is a blindness in the people there to the reality of the situation - or in a lot of cases I'm sure a strong sense of disdain for anything pertaining to politricks. Understandably. This based only on my limited experience there and the few Jamaicans I know or have known or met.

The business of politics the world over has long been just that - a business - where the opportunist will sell to the highest bidder, often a foreign company, government or whatever.

Good honest people do not go into politics. They couldn't take the strain! I know i couldn't. I know people who got into small time politics, activism etc. who got the hell out. Nice people. Now they just try to have nice jobs and nice lives and who could blame them if it it is possible for them to do so?

If one can - as clearly many can - obliterate conscience and proceed to exploit and conquer - one can have a very successful career in politics, banking, manufacturing.

But I know plenty of people who have worked in these professions at the lower levels and they are just part of the system - each corporation being a little kingdom...

Feudal!

Myself, in this feudal system? I was a serf for a number of years, now I'm something like a knight's squire:

* Carrying the knight's armor, shield, and sword,
* Holding any prisoners the knight takes,
* Rescuing the knight should the knight be taken prisoner,
* Ensuring an honorable burial of the knight in the event of his death,
* Replacing the knight's sword if it broke or was dropped,
* Replacing the knight's horse with a new horse or the squire's should the horse be injured or killed,
* Dressing the knight in his armor,
* Carrying the knight's flag,
* And protecting the knight if needed.

I never get to decapitate the customer's!

nuff from me!