Roots Archives Forum

A friend lent me a cd recently,a Ska compilation, which as is often the case with compilations has more Rocksteady and Reggae on it than Ska tunes.Anyway it features a version of Cry Tuff by Alton Ellis & the Flames which clocks in at 4 minutes or so and surprised me as it features definite reverb and echo on the vocals towards the second half of the song. The release date says it was recorded in 1967. I always thought of dub as being a 70s phenomena. Does anyone know of any other "early" dubs like this and who might have been responsible for this one?

Dub, a lot of the old rocksteady stuff was given the dub treatment in the mid 70's.... "Cry Tough" in particular got the Errol Brown dub mix in 1976 or so on the Treasure Isle Dub Vol. 2

likewise, it's not uncommon to find repress rocksteady 7" cuts on Treasure Isle with "versions"... off the top of my head, i can think of "Ali Baba" (different from the "Treasure Dub" mix) and "Love Is All I Had" as a couple of later represses i have that have "versions" the first presses never had. all of these were done in the mid-70s, as far as i can figure out.

Sonia Pottinger is the one who commissioned the "Treasure Dub" and "Pleasure Dub" LP's in the mid 70's, after she inherited the TI empire following the death of Duke Reid in late 1974.

additionally, Coxsone Dodd pirated the TI dub LP's as "Treasure Isle Dub" volumes 1 and 2.

"version" or dub mixes were not all that common until 1971 and afterwards. around that time, the JA government regulated the price of a 7" single so that it could not be any more than 7 shillings 6 pence (the 7/6 you sometimes see on old records). at that point, it was cheaper to release a "version" than another tune and pay the musicians for the second side of the record. prior to that time, a pre-release or any record could be whatever the shop or distributor wanted to charge.

the blank pre-releases of a big tune in particular commanded a premium price several times more than a standard release, and the practice of the pre-release pretty much disappeared after the 1971 legislation.

thats interesting thanks, i didnt know that lps were pirated.So the studio who took on the lp would have "remixed"(versioned) them using their own engineers?
So that Alton Ellis song could be the Errol Brown version?

no - Coxsone just managed to get the tapes or whatever he did and pressed up copies "distributed by Coxsone" since he had his own pressing plant. the mixes are definitely all Errol Brown.

there was some dispute after Duke Reid died in late '74 about the ownership of Treasure Isle. why Coxsone would think he had any right to it, i do not know. it was at least a three way claim, Pottinger, Duke's son, and Coxsone. it was only resolved legally about three or four years ago, with Sonia Pottinger coming out as the rightful owner of the TI estate.

along with the Treasure Isle Dub LP's, you will occasionally see other TI singles pressed by Coxsone Dodd. strange, but true.

i'm sure that the Alton Ellis you heard is Errol Brown's mix, since "Cry Tough" is one of the selections on the LP's. most of the original TI master tapes were two track (typically instruments all on one track in mono and vocals on the other); when the dub mixes were done they transferred those original tapes to 8 track so they could overdub some drums and bass to suit the tastes of the times.

On this CD track titled "Toughest"

[cover=7051,3153]

This is worth finding as it is a superb CD full of great dubs using plenty of reverb, echo and vocal inserts.

Dave

thanks for the feedback on this, will have to get my hands on that cd sounds great...

blakbeltjonez wrote: "version" or dub mixes were not all that common until 1971 and afterwards. around that time, the JA government regulated the price of a 7" single so that it could not be any more than 7 shillings 6 pence (the 7/6 you sometimes see on old records). at that point, it was cheaper to release a "version" than another tune and pay the musicians for the second side of the record. prior to that time, a pre-release or any record could be whatever the shop or distributor wanted to charge.

the blank pre-releases of a big tune in particular commanded a premium price several times more than a standard release, and the practice of the pre-release pretty much disappeared after the 1971 legislation.

Interesting. A few things I never heard before maybe because I have a UK / european perspective.
I didn't know the price of records being regulated by the Government, Was that during the Rock Steady years? If Jamaica went decimal in 69 all those 7/6 records are prior to that? Or maybe they used both currencies for a couple of years ? ( like they did in Europe when we changed to Euro a few years ago...)
Were you buying records in Jamaica at that time?
I checked with veteran UK reggae buyers ( who were buying records in 69-71) and I was told that 7/6 was the released price of a record then in JA. In the UK they call any tune that came up from JA a 'pre' (short for pre-release) regardless of blank label or proper label.
The term originated in JA in the early 60s but just for blank label copies (usually sold at a premium to sound systems, etc...).
but later blanks were pressed in both JA and the UK.

1970 was the year when 'versions' started to appear on many B sides in the UK. Trojan released:
Freedom Version - Beverleys all stars
Soul Version - Beverleys all stars
Version 3 - Ansel Collins and the Beverleys all stars
Monkey version 2 - Ansel Collins
Version 2 - Beverleys all stars

( Leslie Kong was indeed into versions! )

Some are straight rhythm tracks ( no vocals overdubbed), some have organ overdubs or some vocal bits or toasting. Still no dubs as such ( no muting of faders or great dosis of reverb / delay )

Inyaki wrote: Interesting. A few things I never heard before maybe because I have a UK / european perspective.
I didn't know the price of records being regulated by the Government, Was that during the Rock Steady years? If Jamaica went decimal in 69 all those 7/6 records are prior to that? Or maybe they used both currencies for a couple of years ? ( like they did in Europe when we changed to Euro a few years ago...)
Were you buying records in Jamaica at that time?
I checked with veteran UK reggae buyers ( who were buying records in 69-71) and I was told that 7/6 was the released price of a record then in JA. In the UK they call any tune that came up from JA a 'pre' (short for pre-release) regardless of blank label or proper label.
The term originated in JA in the early 60s but just for blank label copies (usually sold at a premium to sound systems, etc...).
but later blanks were pressed in both JA and the UK.

1970 was the year when 'versions' started to appear on many B sides in the UK. Trojan released:
Freedom Version - Beverleys all stars
Soul Version - Beverleys all stars
Version 3 - Ansel Collins and the Beverleys all stars
Monkey version 2 - Ansel Collins
Version 2 - Beverleys all stars

( Leslie Kong was indeed into versions! )

Some are straight rhythm tracks ( no vocals overdubbed), some have organ overdubs or some vocal bits or toasting. Still no dubs as such ( no muting of faders or great dosis of reverb / delay )

the price control on records was a result of the Trade Act, which was passed in July 1970 under Minister Of Trade Robert Lightbourne (incidentally, a co-composer of the JA national anthem). the Trade Act covered all kinds of goods and not just records.

prior to the Trade Act, a pre-release could be sold for whatever a producer wanted to sell it for. so, at one point it was a somewhat cheaper alternative to a dub plate, not nearly as exclusive but still limited enough to command a premium price.

the death of the pre-release and the increase in the costs of making records (by 1971, musicians were getting JA $10 per side, up from $6) hastened the popularity of the "version" - as you said, not unknown, but much more popular in the latter part of 1971.

the change in currency happened in September of 1969, but i can remember as a child seeing the price of some things still in shillings/pence sometime after that (sometime in 1971), like books. i used to get a red 50 cent note with Marcus Garvey on one side every week for allowance - never ever saw any of the old currency.

i don't know if the change was fairly quick or the two different currencies were in circulation for some time. my mother started buying reggae records at that time, but she can't remember.

my guess would be that it took some time for the new decimal currency to filter through the population - the vast majority of people probably had not much use for a bank back then, especially country people.

Interesting thread, thanks for the knowledge!

Very interesting Blackbeltjonez, thanks.