Roots Archives Forum

Should the Clash be included in a comprehensive reggae/dub discography.
I say yes.

No, why should they? Even if they were greatly inspired by reggae music they didn't play reggae. They were a punkband that did some reggae covers and that's basically it. Great group but not reggae.

But, first of all, a reggae song is a reggae song whoever plays it. And they didn't only play covers but original songs as well, such as Paul Simonon's Guns of Brixton 0ne More Time/One More Dub, songs that are better than many other reggae tunes. They played with Mikey Dread and they did a lot for the people to know reggae: many people indeed discovered dub through Sandinista!
Once I saw an interview with Paul Simonon's: he was asked how come he wrote just one song; I replied "because I grew up listening to reggae and learned to play bass playing reggae riddims and everytime I sit down and try to make up a tune the only thing that comes out is just reggae, reggae, reggae."

Now come on....the Clash were great as a rock'n'roll (!!!) band. and I mean FULLSTOP.
True, they had some nice skanking sounds on them, but same goes for Culture Club ("yuk!").
Mikey Dread like Blackbeard was involved in a whole lot of Punk/R'n'R from that period (i.e. Slits, Pop Group) and they gave some good impulse to that music.
Before putting the Clash inna Reggae bag I would really prefer a discussion on the importance of all the brilliant but forgotten british reggae acts of the 70s/80s to be included in a comprehensive reggae discography.

Well, I am glad to see that a debate has started, although the two people who replied to my first message do not agree with me .
I also hope that someone else may join in, because Bellyman often features in the forum: although he is a very serious collector and I take his opinion very seriously, a two people argument gets boring very soon.

I think I am going to maintain my position.
I am not surprised that the two people who replied do not agree with me: this site is strictly devoted to reggae music and most of the people are dedicated collectors, while I am not, although I owe a few hundreds records.
So I understand that my point may sound heretical.
I agree that the Clash did not play reggae music; I don't agree with the fact that the Clash were a rock band who just played some reggae tunes; I think that the Clash played a cross over between the two genres which is a direct expression of the place where it was born and its culture; that is the poor areas of South London where many Jamaicans use to live: you never can judge music without considering the time and place it was made. Reggae was a part of that culture and this is how it developed in an original sound: yes it is not "pure" reggae, it's something different but that in my opinion is highly valuable and deserves recognition.
In my opinion, Bellyman, some Clash acts are more valuable than the ones played by forgotten bands who cut just one single and whose value lies in the fact that they are rare and obscure, although I must admit that I don't know who you are referring to.
We all must admit that many reggae bands or tunes were at least weak if not lousy; as a collector I may want to have all the Greensleeves 12"s ever published, but in terms of music many of them are no good, are they? I have the Mighty Three's Makasound rerelease and even the players state that they are surprised of the interested around them, because they never made: and the record itself it's nothing more than a document, because it's weak.
In any case, always in my opinion, Guns of Brixton is a great reggae song, One More Dub is a great dub and the Clash's rendition of Armagideon Times is much better than Willie Williams'.

The Clash themselves were certainly influenced by Jamaican music and turned many 'punks' in the reggae direction. They had their own reggae connections and loves but they could never be decribed as a reggae band.
"Punky Reggae Party" was at a time when the two different rebellious musical cultures got together, and it was a healthy meeting, but I'd say that's as close as it got. You had The Ruts, Culture Club, etc plus the whole Two Tone explosion coming on the back of all that, and that was a good thing but it was certainly not the same thing!
There is no comparision with the early Greensleeves disco's or Willie Williams at Studio 1 and what the Clash were doing on record, except the Clash liked to cover some of the songs and rhythms occasionally.

What is really interesting about Jamaican reggae is the way musicians, producers, singers influenced each other on this island with its' characteristic studio's and dancehalls. As a result of this melting pot (check out the movie Rockers for example) great music was created. The Clash as such was not a player in this melting pot and therefore less interesting for a reggae collector.

In the early days Jamaican artists were just playing R&B (check out Alton Ellis, Delroy Wilson etc...) and later transforming Soul and R&B into rocksteady, reggae etc... Still we do not call them R&B artists? The clash has used reggae and added it into punk genre (check out the Police as well), but it remains punk, does it?

The Clash was a key influencer in punk, so probably for a punk colector very interesting!!!

Oh well.
Looks like nobody out there shares my views.
So far so good.
In the meantime, I'll keep trusting my ears which being such have always been more interested in what is in the grooves than in what is on the label.

No one but you and I, say the bells of Prince Far I.

Hi Guido,
now what point are you trying to bring down ? Off course not every record that has been recorded is a 'good' one. Tastes aside this lies in the nature of it all.
There are literally thousands of reggae records from the socalled 'roots'era that don't deserve to be listened to or to be collected for their quality.
Is this what you are trying to say by bringing in a group from the 'other' side of music ?
True, there is a whole lot of great music outside the classic reggae field to be found. Was , is and hopefully always will be so.
If you're a fan of the Clash that's totally awright.
They recorded some really fine tunes with a reggae backbone, but same goes with other acts, especially from the late 70s/early 80s.
What I was trying to say was that there are too many who exclude the british and/or american/canadian reggae from the 70s and 80s from any reggae or roots context. These were more to the core than any rockband was and I think they deserve a mention long before we talk about the Clash or any other band who had ties to reggae but were not a reggae band from their own understanding.

Hi Bellyman,
I was waiting for you...

The point I was trying to make is somehow similar to yours, I think. My approach to the problems is very wide: music come first, and I don't like "labels".
More records appear on this site the better it is: as a result of the sitemaster's tastes everything which has been recorded after 1985 is excluded; as long as taste is involved I may generally agree, nevertheless there are good records that came out later that obviously deserve recognition. But this are the rules and we have to accept them, haven't we?
On the other hand, I owe a few records that feature on Tapir's list (and a few that even don't, or better didn't before I told him) and that do not feature on this site: it's our task to fill this gap.
Finally, many fine tunes were never released on album: a comprehensive discography should include all 12"s, 10"s and 7"s. But this is nearly an impossible task: reggae producing and publishing system is a bloody mess, so I think that we are never gettin' a definitive discography.
Too cut a long story short, let's put it this way: everything which has published between 1970 and 1985 deserves to be included on this site (british, american, canadian, african, french, you name it); I only proposed to include even the material recorded by bands that were not strictly reggae, that's all; to this respect, I thought that the Clash were the best, and I thought that somebody else might share my view.