Who Plays Drums on Young Generation Dub?

[OneDrop504]

I did a video of the drums on this song, but i have no idea who plays the drums on it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVe3S4CX ... PSHAQGF9Pw

[caution]

It's a good question. I tend to think that it's Carlie playing on that particular tune, but I'm not sure 100%. The drum players in pablo's original rockers album keeps being a mystery, at least for me. To the best of my knowledge...

Thunder Clap

This is the instrumental take of Horace Andy's Ain't No Sunshine, originally released in the 1973 LP 'You Are My Angel': http://www.roots-archives.com/release/155, but I think the sessions took place in 1972. There are two tracks played by Carlie in that LP, Rain From The Skies and Dream Lover. I still got the doubt if Carlie plays in Ain't No Sunshine. It seems so.

Rockers Dub
Cassava Piece
Auntie Lu-Lu (by Junior Byles, not included in the album)

I think that these three pieces come from the same session and, according to the experts, it's Tin Legs the guy playing the drums on them. I think the raw cut of cassava piece is this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xw1lsh6eERg. Before I first listened Auntie Lu Lu, I was quite sure that it was Carlie playing on them, who else could play these rolls in the snare and cymbals? But after I listened the intro of Auntie Lu Lu, I started to doubt that it was Carlie; after consulting it here in the forum, some people pointed to Tin Legs. I think the session also took place in 1972.

AP Special

I have no idea of (A) the date in which this track was recorded and (B) who is the drummer playing on that tune. It seems to be an early recording, 1972-73, but it's just an intuition, not a fact.

Up Warrika Hill
Tubby's Dub Song

I think these two songs were recorded in the same session, but I'm 99% sure that it's not Carlie playing on them. I don't know neither the recording year, maybe around 1974.

New Style
Jah Dread

I think that Carlie plays in these two songs. In Jah Dread for sure, there is no doubt about it. The presence of the cowbell and the hi-hat style reveal that it's a 1974 recording. For New Style I'm still in doubt, because it seems in certain parts of the song that the hi hat or the rolls in the snare, whatever, were added later to reinforce the rhythm.

Park Lane Special

This is another take of 'Judgement Dub,' a song that was (originally?) released in the 1978 LP Africa Dub and credited to Carlton Santa Smith.

There are some other pablo-related songs where Carlie is playing and that you could cover as well, such as: Pablo in Dub, Corner Crew Dub and Rockers Meets King Tubby In A Fire House (this one has a very strong rhythm and the hi-hat style is perfect). I hope you find this info useful, and if somebody in the forum could bring more light to this topic, you are invited to participate. All the best.

[OneDrop504]

Yeah i did the drums for "pablo in dub" right here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3Sr9O4YDpA and "cassava piece" right here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ej29SGoSKNQ and i also did "please sunrise" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72huNOXWsXE Im gonna have to listen to some of the stuff you named. Auntie LuLu, i'v seen that thread, and agree that it's "Tinleg." I can usually pick out Carly and Tinleg. "Young Generation Dub" does not sound like either one to me. It actually sounds like someone trying to play like Carly but not being able to do his high hat style. The sticking on the hats, the triplets, are just not like anything Carly ever did. I can play all of his hi-hat rhythms, and "Young Generation Dub" just sounds like someone different all together. Maybe Tinleg trying to imitate Carly's hi hat? Cause the Kick and Snare sound like Tinleg to me, but the drums are also tuned different than Tinleg or Carly. And from what i know of Tinleg his hi hat was pretty steady 80 90 percent of the time. I'll have to listen to some of the tunes you named when i get a chance.

[caution]

It's hard to say. What makes me doubt that it's Carlie playing is basically what you mentioned about the sticking on the hats. The way the drums are tuned... I think you are referring to the sound of the snare; in general, Carlie screwed the drumheads to get a very solid sound in the rolls, but I would say that there are exceptions to the rule. He was always trying to innovate with sounds and maybe from time to time he altered the elements of the drums just to get a different sound. I also think that the Barretts at that time were studio musicians that recorded with various artists in many different studios, could it happen that during this period he played different drums depending on the recording studio? I mean, maybe in some sessions he used the equipment that was in the studio by default.

I think that there is another fact to consider that is the recording date. If the song was recorded in 1974, maybe it was Carlie's first attempt to play positive vibration/bad card-type of hi hats. I would say more bad card than positive vibration, but it could happen that it was one of the first tunes where Carlie tried to play like that. None of the songs on the Natty Dread album features this hi-hat style, just the common one. Anyway, the first reference for this type of hi hat style, for Carlie, is found in 1974 in albums such as Mellod Mood by Judy, Pick A Dub by Keith Hudson, etc (in the latter there are two beautiful pieces that I would recommend you to cover: Michael Talbot Affair and In The Rain - this last one with a similar feeling to Stop Them Jah). Going back to the topic, the rolls used in Young Generation, knowing that the snare doesn't sound as solid as in other Carlie songs, for me they are the type of rolls and beats that Carlie would use. The typical bass drum kick followed by various stickings in the snare; to me everything points to Carlie in that sense, but, of course, I could be wrong since the styles are sometimes very similar between reggae drummers.

[Inyaki]

Well...we've been here before, the three of us!
Good to notice other people accepting the real credits.
The drummer on Africa Muat Be Free / Park Lane Special was a teenage Clevie Browne ( uncredited)
After decades trying to spot musicians on Pablo productions I reckon Carlie played less than 10%.

[OneDrop504]

We've been here before and it wont be the last time i suspect! What do you two think of the drummer on Ruthland Close? It sounds like the same style as Young Generation Dub to me.
I'll have to learn some Clevie Browne after listening to those tunes. Although a lot of times the hi hat is so low in the back round its hard to hear what i should be playing.

[OneDrop504]

I'm learning Michael Talbot affair by Hudson right now. However, the hi hat pattern you are referring to is different than the one on Young Generation Dub. The triplet is in a different place. On Young Generation Dub the triplet is being moved around to 3 different places, and in between the triplets there is a lot of straight ahead 8th notes. I listened to Ruthland Close and it sounds like the same drummer because of the hi hat. Ruthland is pretty much straight triplets the whole way, done in the same way as the triplets on Young Generation Dub. There are 2 instances on Young Generation Dub where he does a series of triplets in rapid succession. Ruthland Close has the same triplet style but he does it all the way through, and its a slower song which makes that feasible, and there is no real mix up on the kick and snare, pretty much just nailing the 3 on that one.
Carly to my ears has a finesse with his triplets, the drummer on Young Generation and Ruthland Close is more mechanical.

[caution]

"After decades trying to spot musicians on Pablo productions I reckon Carlie played less than 10%."

I'm agree with that statement, I even would say that the percentage is lesser than that. I would say that the songs where Carlie plays, 100% sure, in pablo productions are these ones:

East Of The River Nile
Pablo In Dub
Corner Crew Dub
King Tubby Meets Rockers In A Fire House
Jah Dread
Natural Way

"Well...we've been here before, the three of us!"
"We've been here before and it wont be the last time i suspect!"

Hehe, I'm agree. This is just the Jamaican style in general, not too many people took the time to write the right credits for their albums. The best example is the Blackheart Man album, the credits are specified for every track of the album. That's heaven for us! hehe.

"What do you two think of the drummer on Ruthland Close? It sounds like the same style as Young Generation Dub to me."

To me it sounds as the same drummer who played in pablo's Ital Dub album. And yes, the hi-hat style sounds similar to Young Generation Dub, also the way he hits the crash as well. However, I would say that the "ringing/peal" (I don't know what the exact word is) in young generation dub is more faster and solid than this. Apart this, there is also another big difference for me between the two songs, the rolls. In Ruthland Close there are no rollings at all after the intro one, while in young generation dub the whole song is full of them, rolls, bass drum beats, etc... To me there is more action in the drums of young generation dub.

"I'm learning Michael Talbot affair by Hudson right now. However, the hi hat pattern you are referring to is different than the one on Young Generation Dub."

I just said that tracks like, for example, black right or satia from hudson's pick a dub album are one of the first references that we have of Carlie playing rastaman vibration-type of hi-hat style. Of course, as you well said, in young generation dub, the triplet is placed differently. My point was that maybe young generation dub was a type of transitional song, a switch from the 1973-early 1974 hi-hat style to the one he would later intensively use in and after rastaman vibration album. What do you think Inyaki? Is it Carlie playing on Young Generation Dub or another drummer? Would you have a name to give if you think it's not Carlie playing on that song?

A Petition to OneDrop504: Could you please cover this song? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ckyCqzs7PU It's one of my favourite tracks played by Carlie, I just love the way he switches the style of the hi hat when it's 00:30. Lovely!

[OneDrop504]

That Junior Delgado song switches from the old to new. Thats pretty killa, never heard that. Not only that, but Carly is killing the the hi hat. I wish you hadnt showed me that. NOw i have to learn it.

[Gabranth]

I love that Carly Hihat soooo much. You guys know this two youtube Videos where Familyman's son plays the drums like his uncle did, right? You must know it. Just in case:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmevlMtaAw8

I could listen to those videos for hours.