Hi all
What is the solution to malnutrition, disease and death due to poverty in our world?Do we need to dismantle capitalism?I think we do, but is the world being destroyed too fast for us to have time?
world hunger
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Elijah_ThreeKings
Re: world hunger
Wooow,
Nice one. Not easy, that's sure...
First of all, it seems likely that at the time the world is indeed being destroyed too fast to give us enough time. But it's not an option to give up before trying!
Concerning the dismantling of capitalism, it's an ideological discussion. Do you have yourself a specifically defined alternative ready? I guess many visions on capitalism exist throughout the world. There are already plenty of humans who have been thinking about what's wrong with it and what can be done. And never we will find the way where everybody agrees. But we can learn from each other. Anyhow it's, for me, quite obvious that the neo-liberal view with the phony "free" market mantra is not going to do much about poverty in the world...
It's been for some decades now that we have some international organizations and bodies talking about developing the lesser developed countries. In this were involved the World Bank (seen as the world's leading organization for development), the International Monetary Funds (IMF) and the World Trade Organization (WTO). Partly in the name of stabilizing the world financial system and regulating trade. And still nothing has changed!!! To me, and many others, these organizations are simply there to keep all the impoverished nations down, at least the majority of their population.
(Just think of the huge debt of some nations - impossible to pay back! easy money for the debtors - And when the Rothschilds & Co invented the bank account in the 18th century it was going to take 250 years for some places in the world to discover such a thing, if they ever did. While for some their bank account has been growing since... Just try to catch up if you've started recently with this wicked human invention.
)
These organizations are instruments of the international **economic elite**. Very undemocratic institutions also, kind of 'one dollar, one vote' system... These need to loose the broad political support and disappear (!) and give way to a democratic alternative, really concerned with the development of those who need it the most. We start with something new...
A nice piece by [John Pilger](http://www.johnpilger.com/page.asp?partid=300) I just read today sums it up very nicely (great journalist btw!!!, more of his kind to keep the people well informed could also do some miracles):
*(...)It was the triumphant American state that fashioned the present "global economy" at Bretton Woods in 1944, so that its military and corporate arms would have unlimited access to minerals, oil, markets and cheap labour. In 1948, the State Department's senior imperial planner, George Kennan, wrote: "We have 50 per cent of the world's wealth, but only 6.3 per cent of its population. In this situation, our real job in the coming period is to devise a pattern of relationships which permit us to maintain this position of disparity. To do so, we have to dispense with all sentimentality . . . we should cease thinking about human rights, the raising of living standards and democratisation."(...)*
This is the face of capitalism as we know it today. And the name is not appealing at all any more.
But, personally, I think, even if money is the root of all evil, we can impossibly return to a barter-exchange system. So money (as one form of capital) seems a practical solution. We just need some limits to it. I'm confident there is somewhere a level above which it's not very useful to accumulate more cash. Although it's quite difficult to define it...
There is a big problem in how economic decisions are made nowadays, let's say a lack of economic democracy. And most of us feel a bit alienated, like it's not up to us any more to decide how the resources in the world are to be distributed and used. So that's quite difficult... Participatory economics (by [Michael Albert](http://www.zmag.org/parecon/pelac.htm)) might give some ideas. And we have to give up this crazy idea of economic growth of GDP (especially where people already earn a lot), the economy can simply not keep growing, the earth is a finite space, and we have, for now, only one...
I don't think the recipe to follow for an improved economic system is already fully written out. But if we start working on it, with the good community values and work backing it, through a lot of discussion and trial&error it will grow along the way.
Some of the things that I would value here are indeed as you put it: no malnutrition, no disease, no environmental degradation (sustainable into infinity...), some form of equality, **altruism**, more local economies, free knowledge...
It's just some superficial ideas... I'm sure there are plenty more that I'd never thought of.
I claim in no way to be able to deliver the solution.
That's something that has to come through activism & cooperation.
Maybe a good old revolution first... people on the street, mass strikes... And a change of mind, where everybody (especially in the 'west') is satisfied with less. More value to immaterial wealth...
In short, it would be great if everybody were to be satisfied with Jah Love...
But I'm afraid that's never going to convince a majority large enough to rally the flag, no offence...
Nice one. Not easy, that's sure...
First of all, it seems likely that at the time the world is indeed being destroyed too fast to give us enough time. But it's not an option to give up before trying!
Concerning the dismantling of capitalism, it's an ideological discussion. Do you have yourself a specifically defined alternative ready? I guess many visions on capitalism exist throughout the world. There are already plenty of humans who have been thinking about what's wrong with it and what can be done. And never we will find the way where everybody agrees. But we can learn from each other. Anyhow it's, for me, quite obvious that the neo-liberal view with the phony "free" market mantra is not going to do much about poverty in the world...
It's been for some decades now that we have some international organizations and bodies talking about developing the lesser developed countries. In this were involved the World Bank (seen as the world's leading organization for development), the International Monetary Funds (IMF) and the World Trade Organization (WTO). Partly in the name of stabilizing the world financial system and regulating trade. And still nothing has changed!!! To me, and many others, these organizations are simply there to keep all the impoverished nations down, at least the majority of their population.
(Just think of the huge debt of some nations - impossible to pay back! easy money for the debtors - And when the Rothschilds & Co invented the bank account in the 18th century it was going to take 250 years for some places in the world to discover such a thing, if they ever did. While for some their bank account has been growing since... Just try to catch up if you've started recently with this wicked human invention.
)These organizations are instruments of the international **economic elite**. Very undemocratic institutions also, kind of 'one dollar, one vote' system... These need to loose the broad political support and disappear (!) and give way to a democratic alternative, really concerned with the development of those who need it the most. We start with something new...
A nice piece by [John Pilger](http://www.johnpilger.com/page.asp?partid=300) I just read today sums it up very nicely (great journalist btw!!!, more of his kind to keep the people well informed could also do some miracles):
*(...)It was the triumphant American state that fashioned the present "global economy" at Bretton Woods in 1944, so that its military and corporate arms would have unlimited access to minerals, oil, markets and cheap labour. In 1948, the State Department's senior imperial planner, George Kennan, wrote: "We have 50 per cent of the world's wealth, but only 6.3 per cent of its population. In this situation, our real job in the coming period is to devise a pattern of relationships which permit us to maintain this position of disparity. To do so, we have to dispense with all sentimentality . . . we should cease thinking about human rights, the raising of living standards and democratisation."(...)*
This is the face of capitalism as we know it today. And the name is not appealing at all any more.
But, personally, I think, even if money is the root of all evil, we can impossibly return to a barter-exchange system. So money (as one form of capital) seems a practical solution. We just need some limits to it. I'm confident there is somewhere a level above which it's not very useful to accumulate more cash. Although it's quite difficult to define it...
There is a big problem in how economic decisions are made nowadays, let's say a lack of economic democracy. And most of us feel a bit alienated, like it's not up to us any more to decide how the resources in the world are to be distributed and used. So that's quite difficult... Participatory economics (by [Michael Albert](http://www.zmag.org/parecon/pelac.htm)) might give some ideas. And we have to give up this crazy idea of economic growth of GDP (especially where people already earn a lot), the economy can simply not keep growing, the earth is a finite space, and we have, for now, only one...
I don't think the recipe to follow for an improved economic system is already fully written out. But if we start working on it, with the good community values and work backing it, through a lot of discussion and trial&error it will grow along the way.
Some of the things that I would value here are indeed as you put it: no malnutrition, no disease, no environmental degradation (sustainable into infinity...), some form of equality, **altruism**, more local economies, free knowledge...
It's just some superficial ideas... I'm sure there are plenty more that I'd never thought of.
I claim in no way to be able to deliver the solution.
That's something that has to come through activism & cooperation.
Maybe a good old revolution first... people on the street, mass strikes... And a change of mind, where everybody (especially in the 'west') is satisfied with less. More value to immaterial wealth...
In short, it would be great if everybody were to be satisfied with Jah Love...
But I'm afraid that's never going to convince a majority large enough to rally the flag, no offence...
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leggo rocker
- Posts: 4071
- Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2005 4:40 pm
Re: world hunger
It's actually very simple.
Stop eating meat.
As we've discussed, at length here before, the economics of meat production don't work. It uses too much space, too much water, and produces way too much greenhouse gas.
Just like Bio-Fuels, meat production takes edible foodstuffs directly out of the mouths of the hungry.
There was even an article on this in the Guardian on Tuesday April the 15th. I will try to scan it and upload it for you to view.
The production of meat is the real reason for the clearing of tropical rain forest, and the turning of perfectly good land into desert.
Apart from anything, killing animals to eat is not needed to survive. Vegetarian food is healthy, tasty and far easier on the planet's resources than meat. Meat eating is pure Babylon badness.
We are also not physiologically designed to eat meat. This is not theory or opinion, it is scientific fact.
So help the poor, help the hungry, go veggie (or if you REALLY want to make a BIG difference, go Vegan!)
See also:
http://www.roots-archives.com/forum/rea ... 008,page=1
Stop eating meat.
As we've discussed, at length here before, the economics of meat production don't work. It uses too much space, too much water, and produces way too much greenhouse gas.
Just like Bio-Fuels, meat production takes edible foodstuffs directly out of the mouths of the hungry.
There was even an article on this in the Guardian on Tuesday April the 15th. I will try to scan it and upload it for you to view.
The production of meat is the real reason for the clearing of tropical rain forest, and the turning of perfectly good land into desert.
Apart from anything, killing animals to eat is not needed to survive. Vegetarian food is healthy, tasty and far easier on the planet's resources than meat. Meat eating is pure Babylon badness.
We are also not physiologically designed to eat meat. This is not theory or opinion, it is scientific fact.
So help the poor, help the hungry, go veggie (or if you REALLY want to make a BIG difference, go Vegan!)
See also:
http://www.roots-archives.com/forum/rea ... 008,page=1
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Elijah_ThreeKings
Re: world hunger
I fully agree that if everybody ate a lot less meat this would already be a huge relief to our planet... But, I've stayed in a small village somewhere lost in West-Africa where the variety of foodstuff is not really huge, especially at the end of the dry season, and I think that for people over there having some animal reserves provides a great deal to their food security. Emergency foodstuff and a bit of variation for their diet that doesn't seem quite nutritive already. The sulphur-containing amino acids (methionine & cysteine) are quite hard to get in the plant-kingdom, although it's possible... Also, in very arid places sometimes holding animals can be a good way of converting foodstuff that is not readily available for human consumption.
And I'm not sure that if the whole world turned vegan it would cure all diseases though... Although it would be significant of a change in conciousness I guess.
I had an additional piece of advice to ask to you... Three of the capitalistic things that I find quite hard to get without walking Babylonian pathways are good shoes (mainly for sports but also others...), a computer and sound-equipment (sources and the stuff to play it). Any advice?
& Of course all comments are very much welcome.
And I'm not sure that if the whole world turned vegan it would cure all diseases though... Although it would be significant of a change in conciousness I guess.
I had an additional piece of advice to ask to you... Three of the capitalistic things that I find quite hard to get without walking Babylonian pathways are good shoes (mainly for sports but also others...), a computer and sound-equipment (sources and the stuff to play it). Any advice?
& Of course all comments are very much welcome.
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sean
- Posts: 1031
- Joined: Thu Aug 24, 2006 4:24 pm
Re: world hunger
just type vegetarian shoes into google..theyre a uk based company into non leather footwear...good luck with this
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leggo rocker
- Posts: 4071
- Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2005 4:40 pm
Re: world hunger
I don't think anything will ever cure all diseases as these are just part of material life.
But at least we can get rid of some that shouldn't be here and are only so bad because of man's evil ways.
But at least we can get rid of some that shouldn't be here and are only so bad because of man's evil ways.
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sean
- Posts: 1031
- Joined: Thu Aug 24, 2006 4:24 pm
Re: world hunger
elijah, you raise some excellent points, and yeah pilger is a very fine writer. new internationalist is ok , go to www.newint.org for the fight v world poverty
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Elijah_ThreeKings
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sean
- Posts: 1031
- Joined: Thu Aug 24, 2006 4:24 pm
Re: world hunger
i like Elijah's idea of mass strikes, i mean, inagine if people went out to close down industries, stop buses etc ..all in aid of Bangladesh!! wondrous..but never is it likely to occur.