I could be wrong about the below, but these are some of my thoughts on dub albums:
It seems to me a lot of confusion has evolved around dub albums due to the unique way producers worked in Jamaica. People assume if a dub album is 'by' someone that it means that someone did the dub mix. Keith Hudson, Pick a Dub, for example.
If you look online, you'll often see reviewers from the 'rock' press listing Perry, Hudson and Tubby as among the dub pioneers, because of their early dub albums. But it's a mistake to group the three together, because only Perry and Hudson were producers (at least in the 70's). Tubby was an engineer. The only reason there are King Tubby lps is because some producer (Bunny Lee) decided to put Tubby's name on it as the 'artist.' So comparing a Tubby 'production' vs. a Perry 'production' is apples and oranges, really. If we're talking about Blackboard Jungle, Perry produced the tracks and then took them to Tubby's for mixing. Tubby didn't 'produce' anything, he just mixed other people's productions.
So Perry's and Hudson's first dub albums either were entirely or partially mixed by Tubby, and that's why grouping the three men together in the same category isn't quite accurate.
So, this brings up the question I already kind of began in another post. Which dub albums, if any, that are listed under a producer's name were actually mixed by the producer rather than an in-house mixing engineer?
Keith Hudson records: did Hudson actually do mixing? I don't think so, but I don't know for sure.
Mikey Dread: did Mikey Dread mix? Or did he use Tubby too?
Lee Perry: I know Blackboard Jungle dub was Tubby, but Perry did do his own dub mixing once he had the Black Ark, right?
Niney: Mixer or no?
Any other producers who did their own dub mixing?
Thanks for your thoughts and corrections.
Producers vs Mixing Engineers
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kandi
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Re: Producers vs Mixing Engineers
I think it is imperative to first differentiate 'producer' and 'mixing engineer' roles on the project.Producer is often a sponsor of the project.He/she shoulders all the costs to completion of the album or single.Producer may even be an institution e.g Channel One.The latter does the actual knob twidling.One can be both in a project.
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davek
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Re: Producers vs Mixing Engineers
Some producers are very involved in the entire recording process, including "hands on the board", others simply finance the session. Many producers will make suggestions to the engineer in terms of what sound they want. On multi-track boards (i.e. 16 tracks), you would often see two sets of hands working the 16 distinct tracks, and sometimes that second set of hands was the producer.
I don't know for certain about all of the producers you list, but each of them was multi-disciplined, meaning they also contributed vocals, and some instrumentation on their sessions.....in other words they weren't just "financing" producers. So it stands to reason that all would have either had a direct hand in mixing, or at the very least provided suggestions to the engineer in order to to get the sound they want.
They wouldn't be of the "I'll drop the tape off and come back and pick it up when the mix is done" variety.
I don't know for certain about all of the producers you list, but each of them was multi-disciplined, meaning they also contributed vocals, and some instrumentation on their sessions.....in other words they weren't just "financing" producers. So it stands to reason that all would have either had a direct hand in mixing, or at the very least provided suggestions to the engineer in order to to get the sound they want.
They wouldn't be of the "I'll drop the tape off and come back and pick it up when the mix is done" variety.
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Horizon Crawler
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Re: Producers vs Mixing Engineers
It's an endless source of confusion exactly how you describe. Creating reggae tunes was a very different process from most American or European pop music. The JA music buisiness operated by its own peculiar anarchic rules with little legal copyright protection. Contracts were not signed often. Verbal agreements might be subject to sudden alteration!
Producers often "rented" or sold and exchanged some of their recorded riddim tracks to other producers, who would put their name on the record as producer, creating a whole mess of confusion about who did what when..
For example, let's imagine a riddim first produced by Niney and recorded by a band with Chinna, Santa and Fully, etc. at Randy's (or Dynamics or Channel One) in 1975. Niney then asks a singer, maybe Horace Andy, to come up with a vocal for it. Niney then hires Tubby's for an hour to record the vocal over the riddim track and have Tubby mix a couple dub version of it. Then Niney takes the track, and hires somebody to press it up as a single credited to Soul Syndicate and Horace Andy on his 'Observer' label. The tune is a hit in JA, so Niney decides to license ("rent") the vocal & dub tracks to a reggae label owner he knows and trusts in the UK, to press up copies in Europe. But Niney can't go to the UK, so the producer has to first send some money to Niney in JA, or there won't be a deal. The guy in the UK sends the money, and Niney then ships a tape of the Horace Andy tune with its dub version to the producer in London.
All well and good so far. The UK producer presses up a single of the tune, the tune is a moderate hit, and the producer in the UK barely makes his money back. But this UK operator is simultaneously assembling tracks for a dub LP to be released under his own name in the UK, and needs just one more track to fill up side B, but doesn't have any more. So he makes a copy of just the dub version of Niney's Horace Andy tune - without Niney's permission - and puts it on his dub LP released in the UK. The dub LP is released, but neither Niney nor Tubby's name is to be found on the credits of the record sleeve. Instead it has credits telling us the dub LP was all recorded and mixed at UK studios. The dub LP is a big hit all over, and the UK producer makes several thousand pounds, but Niney didn't get a penny or even a credit for the track that appeared on it, Niney only got paid for the Horace Andy single. The UK producer hopes Niney doesn't discover this!
Niney does not hear about it, but then he puts out a Horace Andy LP with the vocal tune on it and with all the proper credits on the sleeve, plus another dub LP (white sleeve without credits) with the dub version of the tune - the same version that already appeared on the UK dub LP that Niney never knew about!
So, we have one Horace Andy tune produced by Niney, recorded at both Randy's (the riddim) and at Tubby's (Horace Andy's vocal and the dub version). But it was also released in the UK as a Horace Andy single on a label with Niney's name as producer, and on a dub LP with different credits.
Imagine this scenario repeated countless times over the course of 30 years or more with thousands of variations involving hundreds of different "producers"...Crooked producers, honest producers, crazy gun-toting producers, about 20 different recording studios opening and closing, forgotten names, mis-credited records, jealous girlfriends stealing master tapes right from the studio, payola, lawsuits, arson, gunmen, mafia bidness, bandooloo-ism, voodoo-ism, obeah, duppies, and a little herb thrown in, and then YOU try to figure it all out!
Producers often "rented" or sold and exchanged some of their recorded riddim tracks to other producers, who would put their name on the record as producer, creating a whole mess of confusion about who did what when..
For example, let's imagine a riddim first produced by Niney and recorded by a band with Chinna, Santa and Fully, etc. at Randy's (or Dynamics or Channel One) in 1975. Niney then asks a singer, maybe Horace Andy, to come up with a vocal for it. Niney then hires Tubby's for an hour to record the vocal over the riddim track and have Tubby mix a couple dub version of it. Then Niney takes the track, and hires somebody to press it up as a single credited to Soul Syndicate and Horace Andy on his 'Observer' label. The tune is a hit in JA, so Niney decides to license ("rent") the vocal & dub tracks to a reggae label owner he knows and trusts in the UK, to press up copies in Europe. But Niney can't go to the UK, so the producer has to first send some money to Niney in JA, or there won't be a deal. The guy in the UK sends the money, and Niney then ships a tape of the Horace Andy tune with its dub version to the producer in London.
All well and good so far. The UK producer presses up a single of the tune, the tune is a moderate hit, and the producer in the UK barely makes his money back. But this UK operator is simultaneously assembling tracks for a dub LP to be released under his own name in the UK, and needs just one more track to fill up side B, but doesn't have any more. So he makes a copy of just the dub version of Niney's Horace Andy tune - without Niney's permission - and puts it on his dub LP released in the UK. The dub LP is released, but neither Niney nor Tubby's name is to be found on the credits of the record sleeve. Instead it has credits telling us the dub LP was all recorded and mixed at UK studios. The dub LP is a big hit all over, and the UK producer makes several thousand pounds, but Niney didn't get a penny or even a credit for the track that appeared on it, Niney only got paid for the Horace Andy single. The UK producer hopes Niney doesn't discover this!
Niney does not hear about it, but then he puts out a Horace Andy LP with the vocal tune on it and with all the proper credits on the sleeve, plus another dub LP (white sleeve without credits) with the dub version of the tune - the same version that already appeared on the UK dub LP that Niney never knew about!
So, we have one Horace Andy tune produced by Niney, recorded at both Randy's (the riddim) and at Tubby's (Horace Andy's vocal and the dub version). But it was also released in the UK as a Horace Andy single on a label with Niney's name as producer, and on a dub LP with different credits.
Imagine this scenario repeated countless times over the course of 30 years or more with thousands of variations involving hundreds of different "producers"...Crooked producers, honest producers, crazy gun-toting producers, about 20 different recording studios opening and closing, forgotten names, mis-credited records, jealous girlfriends stealing master tapes right from the studio, payola, lawsuits, arson, gunmen, mafia bidness, bandooloo-ism, voodoo-ism, obeah, duppies, and a little herb thrown in, and then YOU try to figure it all out!
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flashman
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Re: Producers vs Mixing Engineers
^^Good read, thanks! 
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Gabranth
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Re: Producers vs Mixing Engineers
Great thread. I love the old school dub threads. I'm quite new to this topic. Nice Horizon, thanks. I'd still love to see flashman's original questions being answered 
Blackboard Jungle: So Perry had the original songs and a "concept" for the album that he presented to Tubby, and then Tubby mixed the whole thing the way Perry wanted it? The Lee Perry we know from the late 70s is quite hard to imagine stepping back from the desk and lettting someone else do the complete mixing work himself right?
So did Scratch learn dub mixing from Tubby? Did Tubby in exchange learn some "production techniques" from Scratch? (He he, learn from scratch)
Blackboard Jungle: So Perry had the original songs and a "concept" for the album that he presented to Tubby, and then Tubby mixed the whole thing the way Perry wanted it? The Lee Perry we know from the late 70s is quite hard to imagine stepping back from the desk and lettting someone else do the complete mixing work himself right?
So did Scratch learn dub mixing from Tubby? Did Tubby in exchange learn some "production techniques" from Scratch? (He he, learn from scratch)
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Horizon Crawler
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Re: Producers vs Mixing Engineers
Even though the older, bigger producers knew how to work the mixing board and record musicians, they mostly didn't mix dub. Dub had to be mixed "live" with tape rolling in real time using fast accurate hand movements. It's not easy to do - I've tried myself a few times at a friend's little studio. Not many people could do it back then - Tubby was literally the only person in JA for the first year or two (73-75?) who mixed proper dub w FX and fade-ins and outs, etc. Quickly though others learned too. They all try to claim they were the "first" to make dub, but it was Tubby's Hi-Fi, at a dance in 1973, with a dubplate he mixed that afternoon of the brand-new Stalag riddim from Winston Riley that mosh up the place.
Niney didn't mix any of those 70's dub LPs like Sledgehammer - it was Tubby or Phillip Smart.
Keith Hudson - I don't think he actually mixed anything either, his productions mostly have the Tubby's sound, with some tracks mixed at Dynamics, or Randy's by Errol T
But the younger, rootsier producers like Niney, Hudson, Tappa Zukie and Yabby U and were often hanging in the studio while it was being mixed, and they would certainly provide some vibes during the session.
Scratch was one of the few established producers who did a little of everything as a producer at Black Ark: Recording musicians. Singing. Mixing dub. Making cow-noises. Everything.
Blackboard Jungle was probably the last project Scratch took to an outside producer's studio until the 1980's, because Black Ark was finished soon after.
Once it was open, ('74?) Scratch recorded his own musicians and mixed tons of dub there by himself until he "closed" it down in 1980. But he also occasionally remixed other producers' tunes at Black Ark, like Pablo, Yabby U, and a few other smaller producers Scratch liked. He didn't put out many actual "dub" LPs though. His true dub mixes are on the b-sides of the singles he released.
Most of the big-name, early JA producers were not musicians at all. Coxsone, Bunny Lee, the Hookim Bros at Channel One, Joe Gibbs, none of them could play instruments, so they would usually designate one of their musicians like Tommy McCook or Chinna or Ansel Collins or Familyman to actually write and arrange the tunes, lead the band and run the actual session. At Studio One it was Jackie Mittoo and after he left JA it was Leroy Heptones Sibbles and Pablo Black who did the S1 tunes & arrangements. All those S1 classics were created by those three guys and a couple other musicians. Same at Duke Reid's with Tommy McCook.
Later in the 70's more new young producers who were already singing DJ-ing or playing would start producing themselves, like the ones mentioned Big Youth, Glen Brown, Sugar Minott, Mikey Dread, and they were more hands on producers.
Niney didn't mix any of those 70's dub LPs like Sledgehammer - it was Tubby or Phillip Smart.
Keith Hudson - I don't think he actually mixed anything either, his productions mostly have the Tubby's sound, with some tracks mixed at Dynamics, or Randy's by Errol T
But the younger, rootsier producers like Niney, Hudson, Tappa Zukie and Yabby U and were often hanging in the studio while it was being mixed, and they would certainly provide some vibes during the session.
Scratch was one of the few established producers who did a little of everything as a producer at Black Ark: Recording musicians. Singing. Mixing dub. Making cow-noises. Everything.
Blackboard Jungle was probably the last project Scratch took to an outside producer's studio until the 1980's, because Black Ark was finished soon after.
Once it was open, ('74?) Scratch recorded his own musicians and mixed tons of dub there by himself until he "closed" it down in 1980. But he also occasionally remixed other producers' tunes at Black Ark, like Pablo, Yabby U, and a few other smaller producers Scratch liked. He didn't put out many actual "dub" LPs though. His true dub mixes are on the b-sides of the singles he released.
Most of the big-name, early JA producers were not musicians at all. Coxsone, Bunny Lee, the Hookim Bros at Channel One, Joe Gibbs, none of them could play instruments, so they would usually designate one of their musicians like Tommy McCook or Chinna or Ansel Collins or Familyman to actually write and arrange the tunes, lead the band and run the actual session. At Studio One it was Jackie Mittoo and after he left JA it was Leroy Heptones Sibbles and Pablo Black who did the S1 tunes & arrangements. All those S1 classics were created by those three guys and a couple other musicians. Same at Duke Reid's with Tommy McCook.
Later in the 70's more new young producers who were already singing DJ-ing or playing would start producing themselves, like the ones mentioned Big Youth, Glen Brown, Sugar Minott, Mikey Dread, and they were more hands on producers.
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davek
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Re: Producers vs Mixing Engineers
**They all try to claim they were the "first" to make dub, but it was Tubby's Hi-Fi, at a dance in 1973, with a dubplate he mixed that afternoon of the brand-new Stalag riddim from Winston Riley that mosh up the place.**
HC, I would be interested to know where you learned these specfics from (the song, they year....). Were you at that dance? I'm asking because of I have heard of a similar tale of a dance kept near Up Park Camp, but it was conveyed as "1974", where Tubbs rinsed multiple mixes of Stalag for close to an hour (with the crowd in a frenzy).
HC, I would be interested to know where you learned these specfics from (the song, they year....). Were you at that dance? I'm asking because of I have heard of a similar tale of a dance kept near Up Park Camp, but it was conveyed as "1974", where Tubbs rinsed multiple mixes of Stalag for close to an hour (with the crowd in a frenzy).
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star
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Re: Producers vs Mixing Engineers
That is true to some extent, but the Dub engineers were able to record some fader movements and have the board automate and playback same movement while they perfected the song over multiple takes. Scientist was able to make such sophisticated sounds by use of automation, and I imagine what he couldn't automate he used tape splices to keep the best passes.Horizon Crawler wrote:Dub had to be mixed "live" with tape rolling in real time using fast accurate hand movements.
Does anyone know when automation first started to be used regularly in Jamaica? Judging by Tubby's mixes it doesn't seem like he had much access to it especially not in the earlier years. I'm sure he used tape splices though if he felt he needed to.
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Congo Bunny
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Re: Producers vs Mixing Engineers
A perfect description of my understanding of JA recordingHorizon Crawler wrote:Imagine this scenario repeated countless times over the course of 30 years or more with thousands of variations involving hundreds of different "producers"...Crooked producers, honest producers, crazy gun-toting producers, about 20 different recording studios opening and closing, forgotten names, mis-credited records, jealous girlfriends stealing master tapes right from the studio, payola, lawsuits, arson, gunmen, mafia bidness, bandooloo-ism, voodoo-ism, obeah, duppies, and a little herb thrown in, and then YOU try to figure it all out!
I personally have gone through my itunes and re-credited the dub albums with the name of the mixing engineer where ever possible