New Turntable

[Survival]

Hi all,

So the (pretty old) turntable of my dad finally died, so we decided to buy a new, proper one. Only the thing is, we don't really know which to buy, since there are so many out there but which one is good etc.? Of course we could ask some stupid Media Markt employee but why bother if I could ask some of you guys, since you guys are the experts

Thanks in advance!

[Funkyfred]

This is a classic:
http://www.amazon.com/Technics-TEC-SL-1 ... B00003005A

Its perhaps more a DJ-turntable than a table for private use?

[Jonti]

I use a Technics SL-1200 Mk. 5 at home and would have no hesitation recommending it. It's flawless, to my eyes and ears at least...

[leggo rocker]

I just can't stand by and watch this thread any more without adding my bit.

The SL 1210 isn't flawless. I have two SL1210 Mk5 s so I do know what I am saying here.

It is a brilliant deck, great for the DJ - it's a battle horse. But the tone arm is the weak spot. It rings like a church bell at a wedding.

I have conducted listening tests - using an expert's ears, not just mine - running the SL1210 against the Sony PS-X65 I also have. I used the EXACT same cart on both. Same records. Same amps, speakers, cables, room position etc etc.

The SL just couldn't compete. The sound was flat and muddy compared to the lively and clear sound of the Sony. The bass was flabby and the treble splashy compared to the Sony.

And the Sony was cheaper, you'll get one for around GBP150 - 300 if you are lucky enough to ever see one for sale!

I have a friend who has swapped the Technics arm for a Rega and that makes ALL the difference. Now that *is* a great set up but the conversion alone was GB pounds 400 - add that to the price of a good Technics SL1210 and that's an expensive deck.

Tunrtables reached their zenith in about 1980. There is little, or even no improvement in their design and manufacture after this date (another reason to blame CDs!).

Some modern decks are very good but new decks worth having are very expensive.

You would do better to seek out a well looked after and reliable retro deck. Or, buy a SL1210 and do the arm mod.

But of course it all depends what you plug into. An indifferent amp and speaker set up isn't going to show up the SL's shortcomings. But if you have an amp and speakers capable of detailed sound, then the SL won't bring the best out of your records.

Next up is the cartridge. I've recently been persuaded to go Moving Coil and the difference between this and even the best MM I have owned is stunning. MC = clarity.

I also recently managed to secure myself a record clamp. Basically a big weight to hold down the record on the TT and damp out minute vibrations that interfere with the sound. I had to swap a mint copy of Leggo Dub to get it but it was well worth it. Once again, the positive change in sound quality was amazing.

Finally, be careful where you put that deck. Mine's on a wall mount I got for about GB Pounds 30 on eBay. That thirty quid was the best value I have ever had in hi-fi. Getting the deck out of the way of vibrations (from the speakers) has a MASSIVE positive effect on the sound.


Of course, the deck I would *really* like is a 'Sentinel'. My Sony is a rumbling old tub compared to these wonderful machines. But they are rarer than rocking horse s**t!

[Jonti]

Interesting comments, Leggo.

I'm aware the SL1200 isn't really flawless -- it just sounds great to me.

It's always the tonearm that gets criticised, isn't it? What do you mean by it "ringing"?

[leggo rocker]

By ringing, I mean it vibrates like a bell does when it is struck by a hammer.

The tonearm on a TT needs to resist any type of vibration. This is because the pick up (stylus, cartridge) needs to only 'hear' the vibes made by the record groove. Technics did a great job with the Sl's base, made from a huge chunk of rubber, this damps vibes coming up through the feet quite well.

Unfortunately, they didn't do such a great job with the tonearm, which will pick up too much external information, vibration, and feed it to the pick up and detract from the sound coming from the record surface.

A direct drive TT is more prone to noise coming up from the motor and the ground because there is a direct route from these to the stylus. Belt driven decks try and isolate this by suspending the motor and base (plinth) so as to remove the pick up from the sources of vibration.

This is also why a proper wall mounted record shelf is preferable because it means that vibes from the floor can't easily reach the deck. This is especially a problem if your floors are made of wood or your deck is on a flimsy stand.

These vibrations, which are coming mainly from the music itself but also from footsteps in the room etc, act as feedback. This is because the pick up plays the vibe to the amp, which sends it to the speakers a microsecond later. They play the vibe and then the vibe travels back to the pick up through the air or through the plinth. A pick up is basically a microphone so as soon as the pick up hears this vibe it plays it back - again - a microsecond or more later. You CAN hear this, it will loosen the bass and treble so the sound isn't as tight as it could be.

Some real enthusiasts actually site the record deck in a separate room from the speakers so as to avoid this interference.

As I said before, the better your amp and speakers, the more you need to attend to these details as you'll soon start hearing them.

It's a tough call for the manufacturers. They need the tone arm to do all this damping and yet still be light enough not to chisel its way through the record. Hence the increased use of light but strong 'space age' materials like titanium, carbon fibre etc. And of course they need to do it down to a price, especially on a mass market deck like the Sl1200.

Anyone wanting to see some really nice retro TTs should visit :

[the vintage knob](http://www.thevintageknob.org)

You can check my own deck here:

[sony ps-x65](http://www.thevintageknob.org/SONY/sony ... PSX65.html)

[MightyZ]

I've used that Sony deck and it is really nice and probably more of a Home HiFi deck than the Technics which is (as has been said) essentially a DJ deck - albeit a damn fine one at that!

MightyZ

[leggo rocker]

I've used that Sony deck and it is really nice and probably more of a Home HiFi deck than the Technics which is (as has been said) essentially a DJ deck - albeit a damn fine one at that!

MightyZ

The Sony sounds even better now than when you last heard it MightyZ - due to the Moving Coil cart which wasn't on it last time you came - you're in for a treat when you visit next weekend! Also, Anorak Trev's craftsman made record clamp has made an incredible difference to the sound on this deck! And was it shelf mounted last time you came? All in all, I'd say it's 100% better with these mods.

The strength of the SL1210 is that it is just that, very tough. You can chuck these decks into a flight case, drive them halfway across the country, take them out and they work. And they'll continue to work for years and years. I really wouldn't like to do that with my Sony!

[Jonti]

Thanks for the detailed reply, Leggo. That explains a lot. I still think it's a bit unfair to dismiss the SL-1200 as a "DJ deck", though (this guy seems to agree: http://www.arar93.dsl.pipex.com/mds975/ ... nyl01.html
I'm more than happy with how it performs in my home...

Anyway, your Sony looks like a beaut and I bet it sounds awesome. I understand the appeal of older decks, as well -- I had a Denon DP-1700 for some time, but eventually its timekeeping went wonky, which is when I decided to replace it with something that would play records at their perfect speeds forever (the SL-1200)...

Incidentally, as a bare minimum for improved performance, what would you suggest replacing the SL-1200's tonearm with? I know the Rega's an option, but it's an expensive one. At what £££-point do other arms begin to outperform that of the SL-1200?

Thanks again for sharing your knowledge.

[leggo rocker]

It's not worth modding the SL with anything but a decent arm. Too much work for too little return if you don't. So the Rega mod is probably the starting point.

Yes, I am familiar with the SL fan page you've linked us to above (I've edited that link to make it work properly!) and sure, you can listen to an SL, like I did, without a problem - BUT ONLY UNTIL YOU HEAR SOMETHING BETTER!

The SL isn't just a DJ deck (although that *IS* what it does BEST) and is a perfect choice for a decent home hi-fi deck.

But my point is that a good retro deck for not much money will wipe the floor with it. Even my PS-x600 is far better - sonically - than the SL. And that was a tenth of the price I paid for each of my SL1210s.

And this isn't opinion, it's the result of extensive listening tests with my ears and those of my son - who has amazingly accurate ears and detects the slightest difference (and I conducted tests with him where he could NOT SEE my changes but could HEAR them!).

So I am sticking with my advice to Survival, look for a good retro deck with a long history of reliability.

BTW, speed problems on some of these old DD decks with servo lock etc are sometimes caused by people handling the magnetic strip (usually pasted inside the outside edge fo the platter) which can effect the sensors picking up of the timing signals.

Speed problems on belt drive decks are often caused by simple things like worn out belts -- aren't they Trev

My PS-X65 is rock solid on timing. Even plonking the VERY heavy record clamp on it WHILE IT IS STILL RUNNING has only a momentary effect on it's speed!